This went on for quite awhile with other smaller orgs or magazines wanting our stuff to print. Order of the Left Hand Path was an organization that used our stuff as their own main doctrines and spoke for the Dark Doctrines in the book "Lucifer Rising."

Please note that I never joined any of these organizations. Joining means: write a letter saying you want to join or asking if you can join; get a letter back with an application and fill out the application; possibly pay money; get a membership card. That is joining the organization. I never did that with any Satanic or occult organization.

The first organization to give me a title was Embassy - Priestess - and a lifetime membership. We were still known as independents. That organization closed its doors to the public. That was the only organization that was also using the label "Social Realism."

The next organization to hand me a title was the Order of the Left Hand Path, since they used all our stuff in their organization - they called me a Priestess. It is comical to think that when the HP of that organization sent the little card with the title to me, he wondered if I'd heave it in the trash as worshless paper. He knew it meant nothing to me and jokes about it. It was a formality. We were still known as independents but "having something to do with the OLHP," by a few people that noticed that they were an org using all our stuff. That organization closed up and was taken over by people we wanted nothing to do with.

The last organization to hand me a title was the Church of Satan - Magistra - in 1997. They also gave Phil a title in 1998 - Magister (notably, he was given that immediately after he wrote Barton a letter tearing her apart for something dumb she wrote against Wiccans. The CoSsers always had a bug up their collective butts against Wiccans. Live and let live is something they obviously didn't understand). Still, we were known as staunch independents.

All of these pieces of paper with titles on them stayed in a drawer - I never used any of these titles on any esays or articles I wrote, either for these organizations or not, and I never once used any such titles on anything sold in the Dark Tradition.

It was no big deal, since none of these meant anything except the Embassy title which came with a free, lifetime membership. That meant something because I respected Jay Solomon as a man that at least KNEW things of the Left Hand Path. He was a true occultist with knowledge.

In 1997 some of the people with us made an organization called "Satanic Reds," which was to represent Social Realism. Note that the Embassy was a Social Realist organization that closed the doors to the public and went underground. What we came out of, or what the main core of the SR came out of was the Kishites. The Roots of SR explains this entirely and thoroughly, though this explains the Left Hand Path part of it. Our Socio-Political stances explain Social Realism. One of the people involved got a domain and put up some information for the Satanic Reds - but at this time, it was still a pretty private organization.

Here is where the mix up occurs in the minds of online people only. Hr.Vad was a Church of Satan member that bought the Dark Doctrine monographs. He and the people with him liked this material a lot and started to use it. Since Hr.Vad was a Church of Satan member that kept in touch with LaVey about what he was doing, Anton Lavey was aware of what Hr.Vad was doing and, seeing this, he gave Hr.Vad a Priest degree and handed him a Grotto within the Church of Satan. On Hr.Vad's webpages, Hr.Vad kept referring to both Phil and I as Magistrates of the Church of Satan. The online people, at least, were aware of this.

However, the offline people, and there were probably10 times more offline people involved, still saw us as staunch independents. It might surprise the online people to know that both LaVey and Barton were strictly offline people, too, and a bit hostile to anything online.

A few times, a few offline people got online and noticed what Hr.Vad had on his website, they usually asked us about it offline. We adamantly told them that we had joined NO organization and were NOT members of the Church of Satan - and we told them we had titles in every single org that liked and used our stuff. It was no big deal and no one thought it was.

As anyone can see from his own letters, Anton LaVey was aware of "you and your band of Infidels," in his letter to me in 1993. Again, in a letter in 1995, Barton can be seen referring to us, "you and the Clan." She also is referring to us as "of The Blood" capitalized by her. She says in this letter "You say exactly what needs to be said, in a way that will no doubt overwhelm and intimidate them." Apparently when I said it online around 2000, after LaVey was dead, it overwhelmed and intimidated them - because I said nothing different online to them and about them from what I said, in writing, to Barton and LaVey both. While LaVey was alive, she apparently agreed with what I said. Interesting. She also wishes me and the people here ("you and the Clan") best wishes - she was acutely aware of the group of us down here. She and LaVey did see videos of quite a few of us having a party. Gilmore had shown Lavey this. He sent me tapes of many things; I sent him one too - music I made. I was surprised to hear him playing - he liked the same kind of stuff I liked and danced to in private clubs. Even in her last letter to me in 2000, she admits that I never used the COS as my primary identity, even though she is seriously confused about a lot of other things - she is right about that. She also knows and admits that I got online around 2000. All of this can be seen first hand on The Barton Letters.

What is odd is that I never said anything much different from what I had been saying all along, and for years, and in writing. Apparently, Barton was never informed. CoS Magister Michael Rose was certainly aware of it and wrote about it very early on in his magazine "From the Pit." Basically, we regarded LaVey and the CoS as an organization of know-nothings - and they seriously knew nothing about things Left Hand Path until we handed them some information. At the time they got information about this from us, they admitted they never knew any of this stuff and Gilmore "could not thank us enough" for keying him into the pre-Socratic information and other information about "this dark force and flame thing." I think that Gilmore really did get the idea of "The Black Flame" from Michael Aquino's Temple of Set and he probably really did think it was a new expression; Dr. Aquino always did accuse Gilmore of taking that expression from the Temple of Set. Dr. Aquino might have gotten that idea on his own, or more probably he was aware of it from other cultures. Then again, maybe not - if Dr. Aquino actually felt this, exprierienced this directly, then I can't see what other expression an English-speaking person might use. Maybe Black Fire? For me, "Black Flame" is an English rendition of a Tantrik expression; it's also hinted at in the Kaballa; it's also in pre-Socratic fragments from Orphics that became standard in Pythagoreanism.

Despite the bold claims on Hr.Vad's website about Mag Tani and Mag Phil, we were known as "staunch independents that had the Dark Doctrines." That information on COS Priest and Grotto Master Hr.Vad's site may have confused some online people - but offline people that chanced to see that had no problem just asking me or any of us about it. They also knew from reading our own material that it was wholly independent of anything from LaVey's organization. There are a great deal more people not online that are seriously interested in the occult - and they were there long before there was such a thing as "online." When Abyss was selling the Dark Tradition monographs, there was nothing online.

Around 1990-1991, I made a song, "Party in Hell," where all of these organizations that printed out Doctrinal stuff and some people are mentioned in the song: all of them. I can't sell the song because I didn't write the music ("People Hold On" is the song). But people did hear it; many heard it. Anyone can get the tape from me if they mail me a blank tape (audio tape). Many people heard that song when I made it. One person, resentful that he was "duped" by the Church of Satan, brought up that song. Well, Jay Solomon on the Isle of Pan is clearly mentioned in there, so is Bob Rosenberg (TOS member) and so is Dawn LaSalle on the River Styx, so is Kerry Bolton, so is Diane Vera (an independent at the time), so is Jim Martin of the Ordu Templi Baphemetis- they are ALL mentioned. Perhaps he didn't know who these other people were. He could have asked the source instead of assuming things.

First of all, I was not born in 1989 when Gilmore and Nadramia first heard from me. What I and others were up to can be read in the article on Hermetic-Tantrik Mythos and in the Sirius Document, in the Cthulhu Fun section of this website. Some of the information on there was gathered as early as the 1960s. That these things were also published in fiction form in a genre known as the Cthulhu Mythos is easily verifiable. I still know some of these old timers and I did save some of their letters. The Esoteric Order of Dagan Swan Point Occult Order is still around at the time of this writing (2004) - the leader of it is a very old friend of mine.

Some former COS members (that never met me or the rest of our "cabal" in person) that imagined they "were in tight with me" want to quibble about that, finding out that they were never "in" with me or anyone else I knew personally and closely offline, which they should have rationally figured out. When both LaVey and Barton referred to "you and the cabal" "you and the clan" they certainly did NOT mean these COS members that just "discovered" the Dark Doctrines. LaVey and Barton's letters to me acknowledging my groups independence is here to see: The Barton Letters. They meant us, the Dark Doctrine offline staunch independents. What did these COS members imagine I did before I presented the Dark Tradition to those that think they want to be into satan? Well, I presented it to many others in a suitable format. Odd that I never was given any grief by people with diseased egos until I had to interact with people into satan. Go figure.

Why was I always hostile to most of the COS ideas? Read the Satanic Bible and see what kind of people, for the most part, it calls out to. Raging anti-Christians that hate their own culture and parents (inversionists) and the like. People who are complete losers who want to be "alien elite" and who see an opportunity to join a satanic organization and bully their own members and everyone else. And etc. Not all of them are like that, but too many of them are; the book itself logically calls out to them, to that type of person. The nine statements are obvious and pretty good - but that's about it. Bottom line? I seriously, genuinely, see them as 99% ANTI-FLAME, ANTI-LIFE and ANTI-LOVE, as SPIRITUAL enemies - screw the petty org crap. They are SPRITUALLY The Enemy. I seriously mean that in the inner spiritual sense. They are like an ARMY of klippoth attack forces with a general, and Anton was the first klippothic type that founded a public organization due to his OWN self-loathing and RESENTMENT against the herd that cast him out his whole life. It had nothing to do with any "hypocrisy" he saw. Anyone with a brain saw that hypocrisy in society, or with Christians; it's not some big newsflash. But anyone with a real Flame in them would not FOCUS on it; they'd ignore it and consider it something that humans tend to do and forget about it. In other words, it doesn't take some diabolical black magician to explain that One Man's Terrorist is Another Man's Freedom Fighter.

I (and I'm NOT the only one who clearly SEES this, almost like a vision) seriously see a road of black, sticky sludge leading to the vortex of oblivion where the flame is GONE, where there is nothing but sniping and biting going on - and they take people on that road and try, by provocations, to take others with them. They pull people backward into nothingness; they never flow on because they can't. If there is a spark of flame left in a person that could be ENHANCED, if a person that could be pulled AWAY from the NOISE of the "world" (spiritual meaning), and pulled clean away from the inner disquiet that led them in the first place to turn against their own culture/family and go looking for THE DEVIL, and if these people could be raised to a higher level, I and others clearly see that the LaVeyans manage to SQUASH that flame and create another one of themselves: a raging klippoth, an empty gaping hole that can do nothing but pester others and circle back and around some unresolved issue that doesn't even have to have a thing to do with their empty, thanatos lives. Of course, that requires someone ALIVE to pay attention to it and correct their lies. They are NOT harmless atheists saying "nothing much about anything," who are just into Rand and Nietzsche and Hollywood Addam's family kitche, or rational atheists. That's the LIE they tell the news. That's the ruse they dupe the rubes with. I really see that about most of them.

Were Gilmore/Nadramia aware of the fact that I saw this and felt this about their club? YES THEY WERE! I said it clearly enough to them personally. There was 1% good in that org as I saw it - and the rest of it was pure thanatos garbage.

However, they were just one MORE org that was advertising our stuff and printing our articles - articles that were POSITIVE, by the way, and informative.

Did I know the other detailed stuff, the bullying of member on member, the intimidating crap, the whole rest of what I encountered ONLINE, about the Church of Satan's membership or what they were generally like before I got online? No, how could I? I never intereacted with any of these people. How could I possibly know that from interactions with four people (Gilmore, Nadramia, Barton, LaVey)? A few times in the past I did have momentary interactions with some of these confrontational COS Priests and I handed them their heads and was done with it. Showing any of this to Gilmore produced the typical response from Gilmore against his own member: "Well, he is an idiot, what he said was stupid," or "Well, he's weird, just ignore him." Gilmore and Nadramia said this about their own Priests. The time I saw that overly "Aryanist" viewpoint, Barton wrote in a letter of 1995 and she trashed the Aryanists! So there was no way for me to "know" anyone actually in the COS. I interacted with four people. I got online in late 1999 and in 2000 I had seen ENOUGH.

For their long-standing org war and their "line" against the Temple of Set, Gilmore and some others would provide specific snippets of material that made the TOS sound like fundamentalist Christians of some kind. It was VERY convincing for one damned good reason: NO ONE in the ToS ever came forth to refute them! Perhaps they did, but none of us ever saw it and the one ToS member we knew never commented on any of it except to say, "Well, the CoS is biased against us." !! The problem is, our ToS friend knew almost nothing about the COS except that it was biased against his org. That's not a refutation! I don't think the ToS realized the enormity of this "evidence" and campaign. The CoS members were able, at the time, to completely poo poo Aquino's long book on the pre-1975 COS. They had illegally obtained copies and they could select and copy specific parts of it to show others. They could do this simply and mainly because no one else could read it and see for themselves! They were attacking the ToS and the ToS was either not attacking back or not even defending itself. Point being, this could easily be refuted if it was not true - IF ONLY SOMEONE DID refute it. No one did! Well, this is no longer the case: pre-1975 CoS

We were specifically being asked by Gilmore and Nadramia to explain the "dark force" to Setians - and also, to a lesser extent, write something that sort of refutes the idea of Set as Satan. But wait! Wait wait. The ToS is actually saying that Set is SET and always was SET. Well, we wrote something about Set alright, but none of it has a thing to do with the Egyptian Set.

All we had was the distorted information about the Temple of Set given to us by COS people. We wrote a few lines and paragraphs about the Dark Force and All Things (commentary, which can be seen here. I wrote an article on Neter, but it had nothing to do with the ToS or Michael Aquino. I gave this to them and they retyped it all and posted it or gave it to Hr.Vad. I had no access online, that simple task of defining something became a royal flame war with online people supposedly talking "in my name." Phooey on that. (On another level, that war was actually started by a person with clarity laying down clarity on the internet in the form of whirling vortex words - and also by this person insulting the penis size of other male posters. Next came innuendos about flesh rending weapons from the opposing side - and it went downhill from there.) The person that did that apologized to Aquino and set the record straight. So then, that's over and done with. Only the online idiots keep rehashing it, which necessitates me going online to correct their bullshit.

The fact is, the person who did that LIKES to flame, and also liked to fight. He obviously liked to get into fights when he shocked his school with his "Gay coming out" plan and took it to the press. That definitely did not go over well. And while he did this back then, I caught him doing it AGAIN, all over again, vicious flames unrelated to Satanism - and he thought it was something to laugh and giggle at. The fact is, the person who did that did it of his own free will with one person guiding it in terms of "who gets flamed" and "who does not get flamed." That person was also online - Gilmore: "Don't flame that person, he's in the COS." And to correct another provocation - if that same person thought of me as a "perfect LaVeyan Satanist" that would be back then, 1997, at the time that people ONLINE thought that the CoS was THE ONLY org that represented OUR STUFF.

Ah, but did our stuff represent the COS? Not in the least! I will not be faulted for the misconceptions of fools. Perhaps LaVey saw me that way too, who knows - a Magistra title is pretty high. Does that matter? I did not see HIM as a High Priest - that does matter. None of this was recriprocal. What I thought matters to me. What someone else thought does not matter to me (they could have asked me but chose not to!).

They WISH I gave a damn about their silly titles. They can NOT get around the fact that on copyrighted sold material NO titles exist or ever existed. Nor can they get around the letter written to me where Barton ADMITS that she knows I never ever used the COS as my identity!

Well, the facts speak for themselves and these are the facts, which are proven by published material, not online distortions. Why I even need to bother putting this information up here is amazing to me. I do it because this one single org, just them (no one else) and their fan club or spin doctors keep trying to turn things around - as if ANY of it even matters! Ok then, here are facts proven by what is actually published material:

In every issue of "The Black Flame," the Church of Satan's own official mouthpiece, our material and articles can be seen. However I never once incorporated a single thing that was of the Church of Satan or any of its members; not one single idea. Their stuff is NOT in our stuff.

The Church of Satan wrote about all of this material from us as the ROOTS of Satanism, the FOUNDATIONS of Satanism and other such strongly stated words and, somewhere along the line, some fools got the idea that they were the only organization representing the Dark Tradition. They are fools because they could have ASKED THE SOURCE as so many other people offline did. However, I never had any use for any of their material or ideas and never, at anytime, pointed to ANY organization as the sole representive organization of the Dark Doctrines. None of us EVER did that.

The Church of Satan's High Priest, Anton LaVey, handed me an honorary title of Magistra specifically for this Dark Doctrine material, while he knew I was an independent. I, however, never regarded LaVey as the High Priest or Priest of anything legitimately occult of Left Hand Path and I was quite open about that opinion. I never once, at any time, put any such title on any single thing I wrote for them or for others or sold in the Dark Tradition Monographs, otherwise known as the Dark Doctrines. Faust (Ben Schultz) admits that I told him to NEVER call me by that stupid title (he's a CoS member that admitted I said that to him in writing). To use such a title (to do anything other than totally TRASH them) would be to accept some occult know-nothing as a High Priest. (When I trashed them, I used the title. :)

The Church of Satan made use of this material and tried to incorporate it as their foundation, the ROOTS of Satanism, and an entire Grotto of the Church of Satan was based on this material. In fact, Hr.Vad was handed the Grotto and a Priesthood for this material by Anton LaVey. However, we remained staunch independents and if anyone asked us, we told them this. I'll agree that this is the roots of what trickled down through the ages and came to be known, by Christian authorities, as satanism and the foundation of it, because it IS Darkness Theology. But it most definitely is NOT the foundation of the Church of Satan! They have no roots and no foundation (in the inner sense).

Keep in mind that I had two other titles in Satanic organizations before Anton Lavey gave me one, and that one of these organizations, The Embasat, was the enemy of the Church of Satan. I held these three titles at the same time and this was well-known to these three organizations.

This use of our stuff was ongoing since 1989-1990 in the Church of Satan until they were forbidden to use any of the material by me when I stated it in a post on alt.satanism and in a letter in June of 2000. This material is copyrighted. Copyright Registration Number TX 5-926-685, 1990, owned by Philip Marsh and me. I exclusively forbid them to use it. I did not forbid other orgs from using the material we make public and put online, if they ask permission.

ltr-to-barton.jpg

The last lines read "You and your church no longer have permission to use a single word, a single sentence, a single IDEA from the Dark Tradition that comes from us. This is copyright material...... DISASSOCIATE YOURSELVES FROM OUR MATERIAL - NOW." That was also put into a post, not verbatim, but paraphrased. I never saved the letter to text. I printed it out, mailed it and thought that would be the end of it.

It took Gilmore about five months to finally remove "Darkness is One" and "Which Kinds of Satanists" from his org website.

Keep in mind that all of this, including the copyright warning to stop associating, was put on usenet and in hard copy when I had that Magistra title. It was all before September of 2000. Of course, in September of 2000 Barton took the honorary Mag title away. What else could the woman do? She felt hurt, deceived, blah blah. If anything, she was deceived by Nadramia and Gilmore who knew damned well what our stance on their organization was for years. She is welcome to take back something I never used. But they are probably not happy about me forbiding them to use something they made a Grotto for and used very much.

Let people go join these orgs and JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES. That's my stance. If they don't like them, GET THEIR MONEY BACK. It's solely up to them. Me? If I get a meal that's not right in a restaurant, I send it back. Some of these people are even too wimpy to do THAT. And they are PAYING for the meal. That's the story of their life. Not my concern.

WE, the SR, ARE THE DARK DOCTRINE ORG - bottom line. People who feel that flame, really feel it from the dark side, DO NOT GIVE A CRAP about LaVey, or Rand, or Nietzsche or Hollywood or BOO stories, or American underbelly culture, or what the herd is doing. They don't even notice that kind of crap. They are FAR FROM IT. They don't care about such illusory things as "self-image," either - NOT if they really feel that flame strongly!

If they want to know what they FELT, what it IS, and more about it. We HAVE that information in a pure form. Hindus do not. Buddhists do not. Taoists do not. I ought to know! Many of our members KNOW that.

The Dark Tradition is SPIRITUAL for lack of another name, it's not so much material except that it physically defines this force or flame in all ways; there are no rules to the PATH, no dogma. LHP is SOLITARY. LHP people are inner directed even IF they have to do blatantly RHP things in order to GET this information out in a very modern world that is nothing like the world where LHP types originated. Nor do they tell anyone HOW to "get on" the LHPath - heh, one is either on it, or they aren't!

NONE of it matters anymore to me or anyone else for obvious reasons. However, it matters a lot to the online fans of LaVey, the peanut gallery, their spin doctors and a few other seriously obscessed people. They keep bringing it up and therefore, this article is here right now so that I don't have to answer them, refute their lies and end up "talking about that org."

I do not regret using any of these orgs to get the Dark Doctrines out there, and I used every single big public org out there at the time. Did I take advantage of them? Not in the least. They were all only too happy to print it and anything, everything else any of us wrote - and none of "us" were members of their organizations. After all, it was GREAT STUFF, not the usual stupid satan poo or the usual grouching about the "herd" out there. The COS and a few of it's lapdog fans obviously have a LOT of regrets about letting someone THEY KNEW was hostile to them, get handed a big high title. But that big high title was non-existent offline where it really counts. None of the other orgs regret anything. Point is, I do not NEED any other org to "get OUR STUFF out there" any more. We can do that ourselves and Satan Shop sells them in their store and online (both). Satan Shop also sells the Satanic Bible - but that's an Avon Book, not a COS book. LMAO. Satan Shop makes money! Avon makes money. We also have a ton of free material on websites for anyone to read.

For more information on Barton and LaVey letters, see The Barton Letters

For information straightening out the order of events regarding the "Is Fascism Satanic" project see The Original Project One

For more information regarding the blown-out-of-proportion, yet non-existent concept of Tani Jantsang "and" the COS see Clearing the Fetid Air

For other information regarding a few things mentioned in here, we stuck it all under the menu of "Bad Stuff" Keep in mind that this menu didn't even exist on the SR website until the provocations of idiots went too far. Everything else on our site is solid gold and very positive and informative.

I and many others notice that they are the only organization who has a peanut gallery online on usenet, no less, that still bitches and moans about this ancient history of what really amounts to nothingness. When I get on there to straighten out their bullshit, of course I have to mention the COS, since they are bringing it up and asking about it. Then they use that to accuse me of obscessing on the COS - but they consistently forget that they brought it up and distorted the facts. These people are klippoth - 100% bonafide. In future, they will have to resort to websites to help them resolve their issues. That also goes for one "Boboroshi Nagasiva" that has a knack for pestering people to get their "personal" attention - when the information is on websites. He also apparently has the bad habit of trying to "speak for" other people and ending up with their feet down his throat for MISrepresenting things. Seems to me that for a self-proclaimed "solitary LHP practitioner" he is way too concerned with cyberspace usenet and other people's business.

Sincere seekers do not need Boboroshi's little archives to find out anything, if they really wish to know about these orgs. The orgs have their own material on their own websites.

However, it is for the peanut gallery, the distorters and flamers, and nosy little pests, that I have made a few pages under the "Bad Stuff" menu - so that I can simply answer any and all provocations with the click of a signature file with urls on it. That saves a lot of time and makes repeating myself unnecessary.